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Roundtable: The Constant Struggle Of Diversifying Games

Posted by × January 14, 2013 at 3:35 am
Dys4ia

The Indie Statik ‘office’ is full of expletives, puns and stupid gifs, mostly. Sometimes we quite dangerously try to be a bit more intelligent and have a little debate around a topic of some kind. Following is one of these weird and revealing conversations. You’ll probably learn nothing.

[This debate actually came out of nowhere - its roots were a discussion of some Twine games between us. From there, we then went on to discuss how gaming culture and circles operate for themselves, the representation of different social groups in games, and how one would go about or even IF there should be criticism towards personal games.]

Zed: So I’m just gonna go on record now and say that I really don’t get the whole Twine thing. I get that they’re basically CYOA (Choose Your Own Adventure) games, and that’s as far as I get.

Chloi: Aww :c

Zed: And I see people being like “If Twine isn’t one of your greatest things of 2012, you know nothing about videogames” and I’m like “Right, in a year in which we got Journey, we should totally give two shits about a text adventure”. Or something. But I dunno, I’m probably missing the point.

Chloi: I understand the appeal of Twine.

Chris Priestman: I think the only point is that it’s accessible.

Zed: I’m very ‘traditional’ in the games I like. I like retro platformers and grindy RPGs and Zelda.

Cory G: The thing with that is on Twitter/ Tumblr/ etc they have an endless source of enabling sycophants who protect them from any sort of criticism.

Chloi: It’s just a quick and easy way for people to express themselves in the medium of interactive fiction.

Zed: Oh no, I get why people like USING it, I just don’t think that what comes out of it is all that… amazing. It’s like people’s first attempts with Game Maker.

Cory G: Yeah, that’s a point that Anna Anthropy talks about a lot in her book – that everyone can make games. Which I guess is technically true, but does the world need more bad games?

“…criticism of indie games is a rare, rare thing. It’s still kind of taboo.”

Zed:They totally can. I absolutely believe that. But you need to set your OWN level of self worth. You can’t just make any old thing and expect people to pat you on the back. You need to be able to say to yourself “FUCK YEAH I DID THIS” and that needs to be enough for you.

Chris Priestman: I’m guessing you don’t like Glorious Trainwrecks either then…

Chloi: I love that site.

Zed: I love Glorious Trainwrecks. It’s mental. But they’re not trying to sell them as like “THE FUTURE OF THE INDUSTRY” or “THE DEEPEST LOOK AT THE PSYCHOLOGY OF A MARGINALISED SUB-GENRE OF SOCIETY”. They’re just manic nonsense. And I LOVE that. Y’know what I liked? The IGF Piratekart.

Chris Priestman: The Piratekart was great!

Cory G: I’m generally against the declining standard of quality for games in general, to be honest.

Chris Priestman: I don’t think that’s true, the range is just broader.

Chloi: I don’t think Twine games and the stuff people make in a day really contribute to the declining standard of games, it’s like saying people writing poetry on their blogs contributes to the declining standards of literature.

Cory G: The response is different, Chloi – criticism of indie games is a rare, rare thing. It’s still kind of taboo.

Chloi: Oh, I see what you’re saying. Yeah, most criticism of indie games come from people outside of the scene.

Zed: I think it’s because nobody wants to feel like they’re criticising the ‘person’.

Zed: Like, you don’t want to criticise something like Dys4ia or Super Hexagon or something because everybody knows that those games are an extension of a singular person, so it’s like you’re directly attacking them. You’re not, obviously. Like if someone tells me my games are awful, I don’t automatically take it as them telling me I’m a terrible human being.

Chloi: I don’t wanna criticize Super Hexagon because it’s perfect. Haha!

Zed: Although I once had a Greenlight commenter tell me to stop making games and kill myself. But that’s an exception.

Chloi: But yes, indies do need to learn to take criticism. And give it. I just look at Twine games and kind of see them as the “open mic night” of the indie scene. They sort of exist in their own little space.

Cyber Queen

Zed: I dunno, I don’t think it’s even that. I think Ludum Dare is open mic night, and Twine games are… whoever the first two people to invent ‘beer pong’ were. A reeeeeally small circle of people making stuff for themselves and each other.

Dominic Tarason: The problem is that an improv open mic night is a tangential amusement. Those creating Twine games seem desperate to put themselves on a pedestal and crown themselves the greatest force in indie development today.

Chloi: I see Ludum Dare more like Nanowrimo. All these comparisons!!

Cory G: We honestly need to move away from a distinction between “indie” and “traditional” games, I think. Largely because of the criticism issue.

Zed: Seriously. I don’t think we’re the type to take offence to stuff. Well, I dunno. That might be offensive in itself. Sorry if you are. Erm. Yes.

Chloi: I’ve noticed Twine become very popular amongst minority developers especially and I feel like because of the social climate right now. They put more value in the sentiment behind the work than the do the actual quality of the work.

Cory G: That sounds accurate – ‘slacktivism’ is very trendy right now.

Chloi: I mean, I’m a lady of mixed race and I totally understand the struggle. but I remember being in college and picking up the queer student newspaper and it just being full of the worst poetry ever.

Zed: It’s more of a personal achievement because of what they’ve overcome to do it, rather than the product itself.

Chloi: Yes exactly. They pour their hearts into this stuff and it’s not always good, but it doesn’t matter so long as it means something to them.

“…the fact that the mainstream will never see a transgender protagonist the way it is right now still stands.”

Chris Priestman:I think the thing that is being lauded about Twine is mostly that they’re stories/ games you wouldn’t have got before – many of them very personal. It’s venting via a game much of the time.

Dominic Tarason: And then you get back to one of the fundamental problems of the internet – echo chambers. If all your peers praise you as a great artist for a doodle you did in ten minutes while drunk, then you end up developing an ego and an attitude. Especially if you get into the mindset that those not praising you are biased.

Chloi: Yeah, like (I know this wasn’t Twine but) the Kotaku Commenter thing. Essentially just a rant.

Dominic Tarason: It was a pointed, valid rant and worth sharing around – all the comments are literally copy/pasted from Kotaku – but it’s not high art or anything.

Zed: I’ve found it’s good to cultivate a healthy portion of equal parts self-deprecation and self-worth. I hate a lot of what I do. I know it’s not pretty, I know it’s not as good as I want it to be. But I also know it’s not shit and it’s good enough that I even finished a thing. And both of those things are value judgements that I have made, of my own work, and that’s all I need.

Chloi: I had fun with the Kotaku thing but it was really just preaching to the choir.

Zed: Pretty much ALL of this is, though. Call of Duty kiddies aren’t playing Twine games.

Chloi: I think it’s valuable still, though. Voices are being raised and heard that weren’t before.

Zed: Brodude McMuscleshooter won’t give two shits what Anna Anthropy thinks about the games industry. But it’s a starting point.

Cory G: I’m just glad to see that there’s been a bit more push-back against call-out culture lately. People are standing up to it a bit more.

Chris Priestman: I remember reading something once that suggested that solo developers usually have really good taste in games, and that’s why they make them. Problem is, to make something that’s going to wow people it takes years of churning out mediocre stuff. Essentially, most who bother never make the game they want due the time requirement, but maybe they could have if they stuck with it. It may have been Christer Katila who said that actually.

Dominic Tarason: On the Kotaku note, communities need to start enforcing basic ‘don’t be a raging sack of cocks’ rules, simple as that. If you kick out those people who absolutely refuse to play nicely with others, you start getting that silent majority filtering in now they see it’s safe.

Chloi: Kim Swift wrote a really good post on her blog about this. It all contributes to a changing social climate, even if the quality of the games aren’t that great.

Mainichi

Chris Priestman: To be honest, I see the need for criticism, but it’s cool that people are just making games and sharing them. If you don’t like ‘em, don’t play them.

Cory G: Doesn’t the latter part of your point completely invalidate the former part. “If you don’t like ‘em, don’t play them” is antithetical to there being a need for criticism.

Chris Priestman: It depends on what’s really going on with these games – if they’re just there and not really doing much, then leave them be. If they move outside of their circles then there’s a call for criticism and it will be answered. The most obvious example right now is Dys4ia becoming an IGF Finalist.

Chloi: Agreed. Except sometimes it would be cool to be able to offer criticism to small-time games for the sake of discussion and improvement. Though you have to consider their angle. I remember Anna Anthropy wrote briefly about a conversation with Mattie Brice that mentions how Mainichi was a response to Passage. Where Passage is the journey of a life, but it’s a straight white man’s life – you just move forward until you die of old age. And Mainichi was Mattie Brice’s attempt to make a game about life as a black trans woman.

Chris Priestman: But how you approach game criticism depends on your verdict to that – I’m always one to say that you should look to what the developer’s purpose was, and then break it down to see how well they achieved that.

Matt: Twine games and others like Mainichi are like short stories. They’re not worse than novels, they’re a different form.

Cory G: Alternatively she could write for a zine, see if she could get an article on Huffington Post, etc – do something that’ll affect an audience that’ll be interested in the topic and willing to cause change. It’s very safe to make games about these subjects precisely because they’re immune to criticism.

“A lot of the supposed “social change” right now is basically people being jackasses and using the trend toward slacktivism and social guilt to get away with it.”

Chris Priestman:Mattie does write about things as well actually – on Kotaku, Gamasutra and others. Not saying your point doesn’t stand in more general terms though.

Chloi: Like I said before, though, a black trans woman’s voice is not something that’s really heard in the world of gaming, regardless of what niche of gaming it’s a part of. It’s a small step forward.

Chris Priestman: Yep.

Zed: I agree. But.

Chloi: I think after a while, after enough confidence is built up in their niche, they’ll think about ways to expand. Dys4ia getting a nomination for the IGF is a start.

Zed: Thing is, a lot of people like to act like there have been thousands of people consciously keeping them down. Like there’s this big invisible behemoth weighing down on them, keeping them pinned down and stopping them from doing what they want. But now that they’re actually DOING it, nobody’s stopping them and largely because they never could.

Chloi: Nobody’s stopping them because they’re sharing their games over Twitter with their friends.

Zed: At no point could anyone ever actually stop anyone from making games. It’s impossible. But because they perceive this Big Bad Invisible Behemoth stopping them, it’s taken them until now. That Behemoth never even existed. They just felt like it did.

Chloi: Nobody could stop them from making little indie games, but the fact that the mainstream will never see a transgender protagonist the way it is right now still stands.

Zed: But does nobody think it’s because maybe the don’t WANT one? Like, make a game with a trans protagonist. See if anyone bites.

Chris Priestman: Well, that’s the point being made about gaming culture overall, isn’t it?

Character DiversityZed: If they don’t then it’s a demographic issue.

Chloi: Yeah but the AAA industry’s “demographics” also say women don’t play video games, and that’s slowly being revealed as untrue.

Cory G: So people not wanting a particular kind of game is inherently an issue? It’s necessary that people want a game with a trans protagonist?

Zed: No, I mean, the audience for your game isn’t determined ‘by’ you. You don’t get to choose your audience, they choose you.

Chloi: The problem is WITH the industry’s idea of what the mainstream wants.

Zed: So if nobody wants what you’re selling, it’s not their fault. Nor is it yours. It’s just how things are.

Chloi: We’ll never see a Call of Duty game with a trans protagonist because, yeah, the demographic for that series probably doesn’t want one. But look at Bioware. Did you read the Dragon Age 2 developer’s response to that homophobic dude in the forums?

Cory G: Further: A lot of the supposed “social change” right now is basically people being jackasses and using the trend toward slacktivism and social guilt to get away with it.

Zed: It’s basically Tumblr. Which is, in itself, basically 4chan with a conscience and identities. I’ll leave you with this: http://wtfsocialjustice.tumblr.com/

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  • http://www.gamepodunk.com Marcus

    Wow, I can’t believe this was posted. Not because it isn’t a debate worth having or that it isn’t interesting. It is both of those things. I’m shocked that it was put up like this as it really shows a bad side of Zed. It may sound a bit dramatic, but my gut reaction after reading this piece was to stop visiting the site. Yes, I know, one person doing that changes nothing, but I have previously done so with Kotaku (2 years clean!) since it just was constantly grating on me. I could personally do better without those influences. However, I’m not abandoning the site. Instead I’m here rewriting a comment I wrote due to the power going out in the middle of it. So, that may show my want to keep browsing Indie Statik.

    First, I do not understand Zed’s first arrogant remark as to text adventures not being of value. There are always going to be new Journey-like indie darlings. That in no way means that other genres or games are unimportant. Text adventures are certainly archaic and not pretty to look at, but some great stories have been told through them before. I’m sure that more will come through via Twine and the like. Beyond that, Kentucky Route Zero sure is getting a lot of praise despite basically turning into a text adventure when doing exploring not integral to the plot.

    Why is there a problem with people excitedly sharing their Twine games? They are doing so within their circles and enjoying finally having created something. If my friend made something, whatever it is, I’d probably happily chatter about it too. It doesn’t appear that most Twine authors are trying to say they are the best but they would like others to read their stories. Where is there harm in that?

    Yes, I agree there is a lack of real criticism of these pieces. However, if you’re going to insult them and sound like they’re not worth your time to begin with, then why even speak as to how they are not being critically looked at? Regardless, even if certain authors are criticized, it would probably not stop them from thinking they are fantastic. The same is true of some more “accomplished” indie and AAA developers. If you want to criticize Twine games then do so. There may be backlash, but that comes from any game with an audience, be it small or large…

    The point about people “imagining” oppression is also fairly insulting and putting things down in a way that is not honest to the argument. In a non-indie environment, the people currently writing Twine stories are very much unable to say what they want. Sure, they may be cogs in a wheel, but even big time developers are limiting their stories to fit the climate of gamers. The point was raised that Call of Duty bros aren’t going to check out Twine games, and that’s true. Because that audience is catered to, no one can really make the games they want for the large scale.

    In regards to indie developers to be, a lot of the criticism is of the tools. Before Game Maker existed, you had to have an inbuilt knowledge of coding in some way, through school or work or personal study. Even with Game Maker, it was still a bit of an anomaly to those who had never seen game creation in that way before. The writers of the site may not see it this way, but some people are simply unable to use “easy” tools like that. No, not because they aren’t intelligent, but their brain is not at all wired for that kind of logic. Personally I have spent years learning about code on my own and through school and tried most “easy game making tools” around. Still, it was only with the supreme ease of things such as Inform and Twine that I was able to actually create something that wasn’t a massive failure. The “oppression” alluded to seems to be based around a culture which expects everyone to have a knowledge set and specific intelligence for that type of game design editor when not everyone does. Some do, and that’s great, but everyone still wants to create. Simply create.

    Finally, there is the one comment which stopped and made me read it a few times over.

    “But does nobody think it’s because maybe they don’t WANT one? Like, make a game with a transexual protagonist. See if anyone bites.”

    This is a disgusting thing to say and no one called Zed out for it. No, Zed, you do not want a trans protagonist in a game. You can’t fathom that anyone would want such a thing to occur, or else why suggest it? Feel free to respond opposing my remark, but it does still stand that you raised the point. It appears you’re trying to say that the CoD catered audience does not want that. Sure, all they want is angry men shooting at other men. But you write for an indie site. With that in mind, I would assume you want to see everything BUT the average.

    And what do you think a “transexual protagonist” even means? Is it some “man in a dress” whose entire story is hinged upon gender? Trans people are first and foremost people. While they do have stories which may be very atypical, they are people. They could have as much of an adventure as a Nathan Drake or Lara Croft as anyone else. Just because the current writing of LGBT characters flaunts those traits (for the most part) does not mean that is the only way to do it. In fact, I would prefer if there were more LGBT characters in games who were as average as the rest of their crew. They are allowed to be who they are but also not be objectified as some outsider.

    Finally, I would like to note that there is a character in Persona 4 who many read as being trans. There is really no conclusive evidence either proving or disproving it, but the character definitely has a story very focused around gender identity. Was this character hated or ridiculed by fans for that possibility? No, they are one of the most popular characters in the game because they are so interesting. All of the characters in that game have more going on internally than average game characters, but this one in particular is especially loved.

    Someone wants trans characters in games. A lot of people. No, not the CoD crowd, but those people don’t read this site either, so what’s the point in bringing this to them? The indie games you all write about and review are not for that audience, and you rarely bring them into it. The indie world deserves all kinds of protagonists and I would have thought everyone on this site would agree to that point.

    PS: I don’t know where all the writers in this piece are from, but in the United States the word “transexual” is very much not in fashion to use when talking about trans people. No, I’m not going to expect you to know every little term for the various gender identities, but if you could change that term to “transgender” or just “trans”, that would make the piece look a little less scalding.

    • Chris Priestman

      Hey Marcus! Thanks for commenting first of all. As to the article, it should be explained a little first – this was a conversation that occurred between us in private, but one that I felt was worth sharing. No one who was part of it knew it was going to be put up on the site until I suggested it afterwards.

      What makes the debate interesting apart from its various subjects and discussions of them, are the different opinions that everyone takes. Sure, those parts could have been taken out but that would have lost a bit of the conversation we had. Plus, one thing we always try to be on the site is honest, so displaying those opinions although sometimes blunt, is something that fits with our mantra, if you will. It’s not meant to provoke anything or meant to cause offence – but it is the kind of debate that happens in places but is never heard in public, which is why I’m interested in sharing them.

      You can see the difference in opinions between all of us – myself and Chloi argued against many of the opposing ideas as you have in your comment. So it’s not like it’s just that side of the argument and neither is it represented as being right. None of our opinions are. The purpose, then, of publishing the article is to showcase the argument itself, from what are pretty much opposing sides to an extent. I’m sure there are people out there who fall on either side. That doesn’t mean that either side is more right than the other, and you’re more than welcome to oppose or take offence in what Zed says, or anything any of us said, for that matter.

      Again, the conversation was a fleeting one and was chock full of opinions that no evidence and probably not much deep thought went into. Many of what was said may have even been to ‘test’ the other side and see what they came up with as a defense. Playing the devil’s advocate, as is quite often the case in discussions.

      Finally, I’d note that as a collective, as a website, we don’t tend to judge anything or fall on any side. Though, of course, we are in favor of anything created or related to indie games. But as individuals, as the Roundtable articles show, we’re all of different opinions, backgrounds and ideas – as is everyone. It’s the public vs. the private face, I guess. And this is the private coming into the public, which could put the site itself in jeopardy at times, but that’s the point of being open – to engage in debates and discuss our opinions. I hope that anyone reading it finds it more of an interesting discussion rather than anything meant to be offensive or deciding on one opinion or another. None of this will affect any other part of the site or our coverage, for instance – we cover small games that aren’t getting enough love. Plain and simple.

      If Zed is around later and wants to discuss anything with you then I’ll leave that up to him. Oh and I’ve changed mentions of “transexual” to trans or transgendered. I’m from the UK and as far as I’m aware it’s not so much of an offensive word here. But I could be wrong. I have no problem with changing that though, so have done.

    • Zed

      Hi!

      Okay, I should probably clear up some stuff.

      I write from a very narrow perspective, because in terms of struggles that people have and such, I suppose I’ve had a pretty narrow experience. I will freely admit that I have NO IDEA what basically anyone that isn’t me has gone through (which is not to say that I haven’t faced issues, because obviously, everybody does). I even say at one point “I’m probably missing the point”, because I am exactly aware of how narrow my perspective might be.

      I think maybe my tone has come off as a bit ‘definitive’, as if I’m saying “Yes, this is how it is and that’s it”. It’s not really like that, it’s more of a lot of open questions. These are talking points that just popped into my head, that I brought up. I wasn’t trying to make value judgments of other people’s work, I was just ‘thinking out loud’.

      When I made the point about “what if no-one wants one?”, I wasn’t talking about myself, I was thinking demographically. To be honest, I’ll play anything. I want to play games with protagonists from EVERYWHERE, precisely because I know my own experience is so narrow and it’d probably be good for me.

      You’re right, by the way. I have absolutely no idea what a ‘trans protagonist’ would be like which, personally, makes me want one even more, so that I can maybe broaden my horizons a bit and stop making accidentally offensive gaffs apparently much like this one.

      I’m a big supporter of the idea of broadening the themes, characters and suchlike that games are made up of, because I want more variety all across the board.

      I’m trying to be as clear as I can because I wouldn’t want my point to be misinterpreted; I’m not saying that any game is ‘not of worth’, what I’m trying to say is that some things are always going to live in a very small niche, with a few dedicated fans who absolutely love that sort of stuff which is, of course, totally cool. A game might be massively important to a small group of people but, in the grand scheme of things, it won’t have much impact.

      I’m not trying to say there’s anything WRONG with that, obviously, but that I think there should be some perspective as to the reach and effectiveness of these games in relation to others. They don’t exist in a vacuum, after all.

      I suppose I’m just sort-of concerned that maybe people are making all of these things, expecting them to ‘change the world’, and I think they’re going to end up… disappointed, maybe? That’s why I said what I did about how you have to make your OWN value judgments of what you do, because YOU need to be happy with it, as a creator.

      Honestly, I’m some white dude in England who doesn’t have the first idea where to even begin understanding the experiences and motivations behind a lot of this stuff that’s happening now, but I DO know about creating stuff, and I suppose I have a really cynical view of demographics and how audiences work that’s based on numerous years of Media study, which is the angle I’m coming at this from.

      Oh, and in the original conversation, I used the term ‘trans’, not ‘transexual’. I guess it got changed in editing and posting, as this was a pretty disjointed chat that we had before I disappeared to work.

    • Cory Galliher

      RE: a few of your points:

      1.) It wouldn’t be much of a site if we all shared the same viewpoints. Zed doesn’t like IF…which is fine. I’m not a big fan of any sort of non-game myself and I tend to think that they miss the point of the medium. I typically avoid non-games if I can. Other members of the staff have different tastes. He’s not arguing that IF lacks value, he’s arguing that in his eyes, Journey was a solid enough experience that it would outshine any sort of IF. That’s his opinion.

      2.) Just because criticism might be ignored doesn’t mean it shouldn’t happen. We criticize in order to bring about change and improvement. If something is created and placed in a public forum for consumption, criticism should be expected, maybe even encouraged. You say that people want to “just create” – would you say that people don’t want to improve on their creations as well?

      3.) Much of indie gaming as we currently know it exists as a response to mainstream gaming. It’s nonsensical to discuss one without the other, regardless of which aspect of the hobby this site focuses on.

      4.) I’m thankful nobody called Zed out for his comment. Callout culture has a way of alienating potential allies and is doing its own share of harm to the modern social justice movement by breeding divisiveness and hate when change requires exactly the opposite. It’s popular at the moment because it allows for a fair amount of rudeness and snark that’s difficult for the called-out to defend themselves against without being demonized.

      Allow me to rephrase Zed’s point, which was that a mainstream game with a trans* protagonist is unlikely to sell. He’s absolutely correct: marketing to a niche of a niche demographic (trans* and ally gamers) would simply not fly. Further, games writing in its current form is certainly not up to par with basically any other medium. A mainstream portrayal of a trans* protagonist (particularly one created by someone outside of the community) could very likely be insulting and insensitive at best, thus making it unlikely to sell even amongst that sub-niche. You need only look at Bioware’s releases and the responses to their treatment of LGBT characters for examples of the problems this can cause.